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July 08, 2005

So much for the flypaper theory

Remember how the occupation of Iraq was supposed to fight terrorism?

And what [the senior Bush official] said surprised me. If the terrorists leave us alone in Iraq, fine, he said. But if they come and get us, even better. Far more advantageous to fight terror using trained soldiers in Iraq than trying to defend civilians in New York or London. "Think of it as a flytrap," he ventured. Iraq would not simply be a test-case for Muslim democracy; it would be the first stage in a real and aggressive war against the terrorists and their sponsors in Ryadh and Damascus and Tehran. Operation Flytrap had been born.--Andrew Sullivan, September 6, 2003

Sullivan himself subsequently backed off the flypaper model, but the meme never really dropped out of circulation.

The London attacks are yet another illustration of the absurdity of the flypaper line. The most likely culprits say that their killing spree was brutal revenge against Britain for its role in the Iraq war.

Let's get a few things straight: The war in Iraq never had anything to do with fighting international terrorism. Saddam Hussein was never willing or able to supply weapons of mass destruction to terrorists. The invasion and occupation haven't made a single person safer, they have not deterred a single terrorist attack. On the contrary, they are provoking these attacks in Iraq and abroad.

Yesterday's attacks have sparked calls to redouble the fight against terrorism. Bush and Blair hope that we will accept their definition of the problem and endorse their tactics. They will try to make resolve synonymous with deference. They will tell us that dissent is equivalent to capitulation. The emotional blackmail is already starting. People who suggest that the Iraq occupation is part of the problem will be branded as traitors.

Those of us who are skeptical of the administration's foreign policy must steel ourselves for vicious attacks. We too need resolve.


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Revised flypaper theory:

Better to fight the terrists in London with well trained British Bobbies and a prime minister capable of adult-level thought, than to fight them here at home.

It is stupid to try and guess which bad arab was responsible for this week's atrocity. If you go after all the bad ones, sooner or later, you'll win. Problem is, there are a lot of bad ones and there are going to be attacks until we get them all.

I've read enough from the leaders of the Arab world to realize that any liberal appeasement policy is a bunch of non-sensible put your head in the sand crap.

Iraq is the last chance for the Arab people to demonstrate that Islam is peaceful and that they can have a modern state. If it fails, then, I swear to you if I am ever president and there are any islamic terror attacks on the united states, I will blow up every mosque, burn every koran, and execute every cleric and anyone who speaks ill of it until that religion is permanently extinguished from the middle east!

I am sick and tired of having to pick and choose and guess which is the bad arab and which is the good, which is the good islam and which is the bad, what might offend islam and what might not.

London has awoken what I had forgotten, I've seen everything I needed to know about Islam when the Palestinians cheered on Sept 11.

If you think the war in Iraq is a mistake, then you are right, in one way. If Iraq fails, then we should just kill them all, and this whole concept of democracy in the middle east was merely to prove a point that islam is a savage evil that must be confronted and broken by any means necessary.

If the flypaper theory did have factual basis, it would be flatly immoral due to the large number of Iraqis killed by the arguendo-fungible terrorists. It wouldn't be "fighting American soldiers there rather than here," it'd more and more be "killing dark people to whom we are not politically accountable instead of us."

Oh crap! When "stork" of MightyWare (home of Puppy Checkers) is inevitably president, the Muslim world is totally screwed!

So what, Eli, you are going to play this game of sitting back and pretending that the foreign heads of state are completely innocent at terrorist organizations in their countries?

Think people. IF the head of every arab state can promise that the terrorism would end if we just left Iraq and forked over Israel, then, ask yourself, how are they making that promise. I will tell you, they are making it because they have strings into them.

So what if Saddam did not fund 9/11? He certainly funded Hizbollah and Hamas. He certainly funded an assasination attempt against Bush. He certainly celebrated 9/11. He was -bad arab-.

If something stinks in your fridge, you don't just throw out the bad milk because it was the only thing that smelled. You check the dates on everything and you throw out everything that is bad, guilty or not of offense.

If I were President, the first thing I would do would be to immediately halt all oil exports from the middle east to the world.

They hate us so much? Fine, let's see how they do without any greenbacks coming in.

Then, I would erect a gigantic solar shade in earth orbit above the middle east, and blot the sun out permanently in Arabia. Mighty Americans, we make your sun go out if you f--- with us!

Stork, take your genocidal revenge fantasies back with you under whatever rock you crawled out from under. This is the adult table -- if you get your rocks off spewing that kind of bile and bullshit, go hang out at LGF.

Edgeware Road is the heart of Arab London. There are Muslims among the dead and injured. So you can kindly shut the fuck up now.

"I am sick and tired of having to pick and choose and guess which is the bad arab and which is the good,"-Stork

"I am sick and tired of having to pick and choose and guess which is the bad n***** and which is the good,"-Klansman

"I am sick and tired of having to pick and choose and guess which is the bad Jew and which is the good,"-Nazi

"I am sick and tired of having to pick and choose and guess which is the bad Christian and which is the good,"-Pre-Constantine Roman

Stork must be giving us satire. Cut off oil trade as a way of hurting *them*?

"All Republicans are evil"

"All people that support Bush are evil"

"Christianity is evil."

The left wing does it just as much.

Well, yeah, if we cut off all the oil, right now, what happens? Ok, our economy goes into the tank until we can figure out some way to do alternative energy. But, the middle east loses -billions- of dollars a year in income. Actually, they lose -all- of their income. So, let's get our ducks in a row, then, cut them off.

Read: With Allah's help we will not help until the US's total downfall

Read: A HREF="">We must target and kill the Christians and Jews, as we say to each combatant of God... we come to slaughter you

ok, you're right, we should move to alternative sources of engergy.

It was really the blotting out the sun comment that made me think you were being sarcastic.

Well, the blotting out of the sun comment was intended to illustrate that.

But my main point is to illustrate the leaders of the arab world are not bent on establishing peace no matter what we do. As for the average islamic joe, I think they are ok.

It is stupid to try and guess which bad arab was responsible for this week's atrocity.

I hear ya, Stork. After Eric Rudolph was arrested I had much the same thought:

"It's so difficult (not to mention stupid) to try to distinguish the Good Christians from the Bad Christians."

Eventually I decided that all that thinking was more trouble than it's worth--I just decided that Christianity was evil (and stupid) and that all Christians were bad people.

But now you're telling me that saying "Christianity is evil" is WRONG! Jeez, Stork, I just can't win with you, can I?

The problem is, a lot of people make the same determination that you do. Each society has to control its own nutcases, otherwise, we pay the price.

As a Republican, I have to constantly and with all brutality beat down the nutcases in my party that want to go and attack gays. It is our Republican repsonsibility to do so, more so than that of any left winger. I detest homophobic people.

My liberal wife was shocked when I told an NRA fundraiser that they weren't getting a dime until they came out in favor of gay rights.

And on the environment, I educate my conservative collegues that yes, the science behind CO2 is valid and here's how they really do know, and I explain how they've measured the carrying content of the ocean, how its changing, feedback cycles, and that stuff.

All groups have to police their own lunatics, but I see no breaking action like that on Islam. We get these heads of state looking the other way, or giving tacit support to terrorists. IT's no different than how England used to wink at call pirates bad but did nothing so long as they brought home spanish gold. It's piracy, it's an act of war, not a police thing.

We know that all the states support terrorism in the middle east - they all do, yes, including and especially Saudi Arabia. When I say that they "are all bad", I really mean "states". So that, if there is one terrorist attack on the West, then really, attacking any state in the middle east is a reasonable response. They are all "bad".

The existence of Israel is non-negotiable, but I agree that their treatment of the palestinians has been very heavy handed. It is hard though, from an emotional perspective, to not hate the prisoner for hating the prison, especially since they cheered 9/11 at a time when the USA veered quite dramatically in policy and supported the creation of a palestinian state.

The point is, the people in Islam that are supposed to be policing their own lunatics are not doing it. You would think that someone in the islamic world in London would know who did it, or have a pretty good idea. A family member, a friend... the silence speaks volumes.

The left wing does it just as much.

Oh sure, we on the left routinely advocate a "kill 'em all" policy towards Bush supporters and/or Republicans and/or Christians.

I have no more patience for your bullshit, Stork. Take your racist ass out of here, you fuckwit troll.

While Saudi Arabia is probably the biggest monetary supporter of terrorism, it is not through government channels. It is generally through wealthy individuals. The Saudi government is actually quite active, brutal in fact, in its anti-terrorist actions. One of the primary goals of fundamentalist muslims has been the overthrow of the Saudi government. Not surprisingly, the government opposes this.

I was wondering why this comment thread stood at 23 (now 24) when an even more provocative posting was right below.

Oh Thad, just read all of the left wing blogs and all the hate they run up. "bush is the worst president ever, all republicans are criminals, they are thieves, look at what the christians are doing, warning, danger, evil republicans out to snuff out your babies and poop down your noses."

Come off it dude, your side throws incendiary crap to make money just like everyone else does. Get off your high horse and grow up.

The whole Blogosphere is a troll.

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