Feminism and domesticity

Don't get married, girls - you'll sign away your life
You may start off as a woman but you'll end up as 'the Wife'
You could be a vestal virgin, take the veil and be a nun
But don't get married, girls, for marriage isn't fun
--"Don't Get Married Girls", Leon Rosselson*

Linda Hirshman's article about feminism and domesticity has generated a lot of discussion in the feminist blogosphere. Hirshman argues that women face a domestic glass ceiling because society still expects them to shoulder the lion's share of housekeeping and child-rearing. In other words, women aren't taking their places as Fortune 500 executives because in relationship after relationship, they lose at domestic brinksmanship.

Hirshman criticizes so-called "choice" feminists for insisting that any choice a woman makes is feminist just because it's her choice. She maintains that if we are serious about women's equality, we will have to set rules. Hirshman's "rules" are pieces of (pre-)marital advice for women seeking maximum independence: marry a younger or poorer man, get a marketable education, and be serious about your career.

Bitch PhD responds with a radical married feminist manifesto. Instead of seeking out a weaker partner in the hopes of forcing a fair distribution of domestic labor, Dr. B. encourages women to negotiate equality in every other aspect of their marriages and steel themselves for a long battle over housework. On her view, it's a mistake to expect that an ideological commitment to equality will ensure that the laundry and dusting actually get divvied up equally. Why?

Dr. B explains:

In fact, I believe that this is the single most irretrievably gendered division-of-labor issue for couples who want to be, or think they are, equals: the person whose job it is to monitor that equality is the person who has the least power. And in most cases, that's the woman.

Amanda of Pandagon argues that it's hopeless for women to expect equality in the home as long as we live in a patriarchal society. Amanda isn't as optimistic as Hirshman and Dr. B. when it comes to an individual wife's power to force her husband to do his share. Society is on the man's side, Amanda argues. In her experience, a woman who demands help is a nag. A messy house stigmatizes only the woman. On the other hand, it's soul-destroying to fight about the housework or do it and feel like second-class citizen.

Personally, I'm a huge believer in what Hirschman calls "ignorance and dust"--not caring about tidiness and not cultivating any special skills to produce domestic order. One of the way society controls women is by setting unrealistic bourgeois aesthetic standards and foisting them on women. One way women can resist the patriarchy is by rejecting these standards as unreasonable.

If you don't let other people shame you for your sex life, don't let them shame you about ironing the sheets, either. Slob is the new slut.

*I chose this epigram because it sums up the problem Hirshman identifies, not because I'm against marriage.

(x-posted at The PEEK)

Comments

[Squashed Lemon]

Jeebus, people are dead from white phosphor, torture, women loosing right to vote in Iraq, and loosing abortion right and people are worrying the power structure of house dusting? What's next? Endless discussion why teen girls dress slutty?

yeah It's radical alright. Radically inane.

eh hmmm...

(you can toss rotten tomato at me for this. but I stand by my opinion)

[Jedmunds]

If you don't let other people shame you for your sex life, don't let them shame you about ironing the sheets, either. Slob is the new slut.

Nicely put, I think.

But please stop talking about who's folding the sheets. It's taking my focus away from Iraq. I don't know how I'll ever stop that problem unless we all spend our day reading and writing about it on blogs.

[elliottg]

I thought bitchphd got it really wrong. The reason guys don't do housework because we truly don't care that much; it's not some clever ploy to get out of it. If that were true then unmarried peoples houses would not be so different based on gender, but they are.

[rob helpy-chalk]

Elliottg: Dr. B has an extended argument against the "I'm just a less tidy person" argument. I'm not sure it works, so I'm not sure I can reconstructed accurately, but I think it boils down to this:

1. Men are more slobbish than women because they have not internalized the idea that household management is their responsibility.

2. They have not internalized this responsibility because they are used to an unfair labor distribution where women doing the work for them.

3. Someone must take responsibility for managing the household, in order to have an orderly life, sanitary living conditions, and a respectable presentation of the household to the outside world.

4. Therefore it is incumbant on men to internalize what are now typically female standards of cleanliness.

The crucial premise here is premise 3. Talk of internalized responsibility gets you nowhere unless you can show that living up to the now-typically-female standards of cleanliness really is necessary.

Lindsay is essentially denying 3 in its stronger forms. I personally prefer this viewpoint over Dr. B's, mostly because I'm a big slob. I'm not actually sure I can justify it from an ethical or feminist perspective.
3. Therefore, if

[rob helpy-chalk]

Ignore the last line of the last comment. It's a cut and paste error.

[redbraidy]

Eliottg, strictly from an ancedotal point of view, I would say that is wrong. I'm female and my house is not at all tidy. And the cleanest neatfreaky people I know are both male and female. The true slobs (those whose floors are carpeted with fast food wrappers and behind the couch lurk furry pizza crusts) are also both male and female. However, among my circle of friends, the slobs, both male and female, seem to be people who always had someone else to clean up after them (mom, a maid) and somehow they still think that someday the magic cleaning fairy (the tooth fairy's second cousin) will show up.

There is a certain societal expectation that in marriages or significant other relationships that the woman will do all the cleaning, but the ratio of slobs to neat people seems to cut across genders, rather than between them.

[Squashed Lemon]

Either
a. get a modern convinient gadgets. (ie. industrial strength air filtering system)

b. marry a masochist bottom who likes to clean for pleasure.

c. life inside a defunk chip fab rated at least class 500 (under 500 dust particles in a cubic feet)

d. move to arctic. much less dust there, but you have to life with ice.

e. get a therapy for that cleaning obsession.

end of discussion.

NEXT....!!!

[Squashed Lemon]

all slutty slob people, liberate yourself!

(ehrr...I think)

[Lindsay Beyerstein]

I just want to emphasize that I'm not one of those decomposing pizza box midden people. heh.

IMO, cleanliness is very important, but tidiness is a luxury.

[dan]

liar. we've all seen your stove.

[pragmatic_realist]

Not much new here; its an old story.

SINGLE GIRL by the Carter Family

Single girl, single girl she's going dressed so fine
Oh, she's going dressed so fine
Married girl, married girl she wears just any kind
Oh, she wears just any kind

Single girl, single girl she goes to the store and buys
Oh, she goes to the store and buys
Married girl, married girl she rocks the cradle and cries
Oh, she rocks the cradle and cries

Single girl, single girl she's going where she please
Oh, she's going where she please
Married girl, married girl, a baby on her knees
Oh, a baby on her knees

Recorded 8/2/27 Bristol, Tn

[Njorl]

"4. Therefore it is incumbant on men to internalize what are now typically female standards of cleanliness. "

It has been my personal experience that no woman who has lived alone for an extended period of time is willing to compromise on how a household should be kept. Men who live alone know that they way they live is not going to be acceptable to other people (usually). It is common for men to intentionally go to extremes to glory in this state. If they don't want to change, they continue to live alone. This doesn't seem to occur to women. They seem to believe that because they are women, their idea of how to maintain a household is intrinsically superior. I think this due to the same unfair societal expectation that they should be the one doing the housework. I think it is necessary for both false assumptions to die simultaneously to avoid conflict.

[Trystero]

My own cohab experience:

I did the laundry; she folded it.
I cleaned the bathroom; she cleaned the rest of the house.
I did all the cooking (should have been a warning sign...)

I don't remember either of us ever "dusting"

Now I live somewhere inherently dusty (sometimes it rains mud) and I like SL's ideas. Several layers of used dryer sheets make an awesome filter if you have forced-air heating.

[Trystero]

Oh, and our friends mocked us for having drawers full of neatly folded socks.

[dan]

Trystero

It rains _mud_? it's none of my business, but may I ask where you live?

[Naked Ape]

My wife and I both work outside the home. I paid a cleaning service to do my cleaning before I was married, and for quite a while afterwards. My wife and the last cleaner that we employed had a falling out, and my wife decided that I shouldn't 'waste' that money and she could vacuum and dust without outside assistance. I explained that I would rather stick needles in my eyes than vacuum and dust myself, and I recommended engaging a new cleaning service. She overruled, and now the patriarchy is to blame for chaining her to the vacuum? I don't think so.

On the plus side, the glamor and excitement of vacuuming and dusting seems to be losing it's lustre after two years, and my wife has recently agreed to let me hire a professional to do these unholy tasks that neither of us enjoy.

Cheers,

Naked Ape

[John Stith]

I've got an out myself... I was diagnosed with ADHD years ago and some of my areas...well... are just messy. I'm not terribly organized, even though as a child in a single parent household, I did things around the house. I know how to dust, vacuum, etc. About the only thing I do with any regularity is clean my kitchen.

That being said, I think all this is honestly between the couple involved. Also as society changes, so do gender roles. In the end though, like so many other things, couples figure out what works for them and goes with it.

[redbraidy]

Oh, Lindsay, I didn't mean to imply that you were a member of the pizza box midden brigade; I'm not either. I'm cluttery with stacks of books and undusted shelves, and I have a pile of dirty dishes and a pile of clean dishes, that rotate daily but never entirely go away. But I don't have the piles of trash that some of my more casual? slobby? friends have in their living spaces, and, like I said, most of those were people used to having someone else clean up after them. That doesn't mean I think all casual? slobby? people do, just that it is my experience with it.

But, both among the people who are extremely clean and tidy and among those who don't see the dead pizzas, some are male and some are female. The insistence of both men and women that men are slobs and women are neat seems to me to be another of the false gender markers we are so fond of. Men and women have differences, but the traditional gender roles don't always reflect actual differences, choosing instead to pick various human traits and assign them a gender. It makes it much easier to shame a person of either gender when they don't fit the gender 'norm'.

And as far as discussing neatness instead of Iraq or other disaster, well, there's not a damn thing I can do about Iraq or disasters in other places. I vote, I volunteer, I contribute to causes, etc. but it's not going to make any difference. Yet another discussion of how dire the conditions are in the world will not change or help anyone. A discussion where people examine their own lives and think about why they do what they do might possibly change some opinions and maybe get people to try something different in their own lives. And maybe, just maybe, if people are aware of their own attitudes and options, we can change things so that the big ticket issues will be affected. Yeah, right.

[rob helpy-chalk]

It rained mud in my old home of Lubbock, Texas all the time. Basically whenever you get a dust storm and a rainstorm at the same time you get a mud storm.

It is not as weird as it sounds. The main way you realize the that the precipitation is actually mud is when you look at the splat marks on windows.

The household dust in Lubbock was pretty intense, too. It was the only place I lived where dust accumulated specifically around windowsills and other draughty areas--little piles of red dust like snowdrifts.

[Nat]

This is a hodge podge of issues with overlaps, not just one.

Child rearing has many stages, some of which are hard for guys to play a part in. However, any guy unwilling to change a diaper is just a pathetic candy ass wimp. I have serious sleep disorders so I did all the night duty for my twin boys, one of whom was a serious bed wetter. The other would not nurse so I did the nightly feedings, too. Not an easy several years but I am glad I could be there for them.

Now I am a total failure on the housework, but I don't hold my wife to a higher standard which I think is the point. Equivalent thresholds of disgust are a critical compatibility factor for all roomies, as Oscar and and Felix taught us.

[Nat]

And as an Austinite I knew it could only be Lubbock that rains mud. Most household dust in this world is actually dead skin. In Lubbock it is really dust. Once in a while Lubbock comes to Austin and our cars are red for a while. My hat is off to the neat freaks of Lubbock, if there are any. Not an easy job.

[rob helpy-chalk]

I just want to emphasize that I'm not one of those decomposing pizza box midden people. heh.

Everyone always thinks their attitude towards cleaning is a healthy mean, largely because we all know people who are messier than we are and people who are neater than we are.

The situation is a lot like George Carlin's routine about driving. Everyone who drives faster than you, he pointed out, is a maniac. Everyone who drives slower than you is a moron. It is amazing there aren’t more accidents with all these maniacs and morons around.

[John]

My sister and her husband both work full-time jobs, yet it is he who does all the cleaning and cooking. Back when I was married my (now) ex-wife used to cook all the meals, but I did all the cleaning and laundry. That sounds equitable, doesn't it? Oops, I forgot to mention one other thing: I worked (and still work) 45-50 hours per week while she did NOT work at all. I accepted this arrangement reluctantly only because she was raising our son. However, after he started school (all-day kindergarten, mind you) nothing changed. This still would have been fine if she had gotten a job, but she didn't. She made up a hundred and one excuses for not working or even looking for work. That is ultimately what caused me to file for divorce.

My point in sharing this is two-fold: 1) Domestic feminism as a whole has improved at least a little. I don't think my sister or ex-wife would have even tried this if we were living in the 1950's. 2) More importantly, I think these domestic situations need to be addressed on a case-by-case basis in our modern times, rather than feminist leaders preaching the need for change. These leaders largely have done a good job of raising women's awareness already. Now it is time for each woman to individually assert her precise role on the homefront.

I believe that most men in our society still have this unspoken expectation that "the little lady" should do the lioness' share of the housework even if said little lady also works full time. However I think wives today have gained enough of a voice to tell their husbands that the housework WILL BE equally shared, and if they don't like it they can leave it. This should be made crystal clear before the two ever start cohabiting, with pointed stress on the consequences of failure. I know a few will say that I'm too radical for making this big of an issue of domestic duties, but I think a lot of breakups occur because one person feels like he or she is putting more work into the relationship than his or her partner. Many times this "work" is actual housework. So basically all I am saying is that if you want your relationship to last be clear and upfront about what you want and expect from it. Be you woman OR man (including me - see above), expect your relationship to fail if either you OR your partner is working harder than the other.

PS: Lindsay, will you be posting an article today for Blog Against Racism Day?

[Nathan Williams]

Trystero: Why should doing all the cooking have been a warning sign?
(curious, since I'm doing 98% of the cooking in my household...)

[Squashed Lemon]

Motto of the day:

I am a slob, but a healthy slob.

:p

-------

okay so next question:

what is neat? (can we create a quantitative parameters?)

how about clean? (is it a function of patogens content? cultural perception?)

How do we measure those two criteria?

Can we measure the neatness and cleanliness index between two people?

...Hey....we MIGHT be onto something here... (or maybe not. :D )