That's "self-hating Jew" to you

Welcome, Tim Blair readers.

Over the weekend, Tim accused me of anti-semitism for intending to read The Tin Drum knowing that the author served in the SS as a 17-year-old conscript.

Not to be outdone, the Rovian Conspiracy chimes in to call me a Nazi-lover.

Okay...

I'm going crank the Wagner and snicker at the rubes.

Update: TRex granted my special musical request! NPR fans will know what I'm talking about.

Comments

[RickD]

Interesting. By this logic, anybody who listens to Pope Benedict is also a Nazi-lover.

Wait - that might not be as exculpatory as you'd want it to be. :)

[John Lucid]

Why can't you turn that self-hatred into something more useful or productive, like promoting hatred of Arabs, or defending Mel Gibson just like Rabbi Lapin did?

Be a good Jew now, and support Christian conservative Republicans. They're looking out for you, I hope you know. It's what a self-loving Jew would do. Just ask Pammy.

[Axel]

What a nice forgery! St Wendeler quotes the wikipedia entry correctly:

"In the Nuremberg Trials, the Waffen-SS was condemned as part of a criminal organisation due to their involvement with the National Socialist Party (NSDAP), and Waffen-SS veterans were denied many of the rights afforded other German combat veterans who had served in the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine."

But the next sentence isn't mentioned:

"Conscripts, however, were exempted from that judgment, as many of them were forced to join the organisation by German authorities."

So much for thruthfulness...

[TRex]

Ooookaaaaaaaayyy.

Never mind the strong anti-fascist subtext in all of Grass's books. Hooboy. These people are waaaay out to lunch. I've read multiple works by Grass and you couldn't find a more ardent foe of the Nazis.

I guess that makes Jimmy Somerville a Nazi sympathizer for naming his 80's band Bronski Beat after "Tin Drum".

[Robin Varghese]

And if you find something of value in John Locke then you're obviously a proponent of slavery since he was a major investor in the Royal Africa Company.

[kaleidescope]

On "The Tin Drum", I recommend the movie as well. It's one frightening and depressing experience, which is how Gunter Grass obviously felt about Germany, especially in light of its experience in WWII.

[Gary Sugar]

Liberal anti-semites are teh hawt. But I admit, the non-anti-semitic Jews are also pretty hot.

[The Minstrel Boy]

don't forget vienniese coffee, and pastry mit schlag. you'll be blown away by "the tin drum" it's ecstatic genius.

[wkmaier]

Wikipedia is hardly unimpeachable. Except for perhaps birtdays of film stars - and even that is dubious - I'd hesitate using Wiki as a source in arguing a point of view. Not without further sourcing anyway.

[MT]

Oy. Just remember though, if he was yor bubbie or zehda who escaped from the concentration camps, you'd forgive him for over reacting.

[Marx and Lenin]

Never mind the strong anti-fascist subtext in all of Grass's books. Hooboy. These people are waaaay out to lunch. I've read multiple works by Grass and you couldn't find a more ardent foe of the Nazis.

The point, of course, isn't that Grass was a member of the SS. It's his anti-American politics. This is simply part of the ongoing project to discredit any writer or intellectual who criticizes Bush's imperial ambitions.

Peronsally, I don't really see why the left doesn't turn this around on the right more often. Read the latest book by Robert Fisk "The Great War for Civilization". He goes into detail about how Ellie Weisel collaborated with the Israeli and Turkish governments to keep discussion about the Armenian genocide from being discussed at holocaust conferences in Israel.

But of course Weisel is a reliable supporter of the right and the Likud Party and Grass is a critic of the United States. So the reaction is obviously different.

[Lindsay Beyerstein]

I'm not supporting or defending Grass. All I know is that he's a Nobel laureate whose work is highly recommended by people I respect like Amanda, Jeralyn, Barbara, and TRex (to name a few). So, I'm looking forward to reading "The Tin Drum." (I'm normally very hostile to quasi-magic realism, or anything that smacks of mysticism or symbolism. Just an aesthetic quirk of mine.)

I don't generally judge my art by the biography of its creator. It's not like the royalties from my used copy of "The Tin Drum" are fueling Grass's ongoing fugitive SS lifestyle in Patagonia. And it's not like he's running for Pope. Whether he was a personal moral leader to post-Nazi Germany is largely irrelevant to me as a reader of novels. I'm not saying it isn't an important or interesting historical question, but I've never had occasion to examine the evidence.

I should write Grass's publisher and ask for a review copy of his memoirs.

[JR]

wkmeir, if you don't trust wikidepia on this point, how about the Jewish Virtual Library, which says the same thing:

"Regardless of the record of individual combat units within the Waffen-SS, the entire organization was declared a criminal organization by the International Military Tribunal during the Nuremberg Trials, except conscripts, who were exempted from that judgement due to being forcibly mobilised."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/waffenss.html

Lindsay, if you want to read a completely clueless response to this news, try Brad DeLong, who attacks Grass from what he thinks is the left.

Marx and Lenin, your attack on Wiesel is completely gratuitous. Weisel has been outspoken on the need for Turkey to recognize and atone for the Armenian genocide, see, e.g., http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories__Narratives__Documen/Armenian_Genocide/Public_Petitions/publicpetition.gif

There is no need to posit a conspiracy with Turkey and Israel for Wiesel's desire to keep Holocaust conferences focused on the Holocaust. He is outspoken on the need to recognize that the Holocaust was a uniquely Jewish event. You may disagree with him, but at the same time you must recognize that he has been outspoken in mobilizing public opinion against other genocides. At the dedication of the Holocaust Museum he publicly berated President Clinton for not preventing the genocide of the Bosnian Muslims. Today he is active in promoting intervention in Darfur.

[JR]

wkmeir, if you don't trust wikipedia on this point, how about the Jewish Virtual Library, which says the same thing:

"Regardless of the record of individual combat units within the Waffen-SS, the entire organization was declared a criminal organization by the International Military Tribunal during the Nuremberg Trials, except conscripts, who were exempted from that judgement due to being forcibly mobilised."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/waffenss.html

Lindsay, if you want to read a completely clueless response to this news, try Brad DeLong, who attacks Grass from what he thinks is the left.

Marx and Lenin, your attack on Wiesel is completely gratuitous. Weisel has been outspoken on the need for Turkey to recognize and atone for the Armenian genocide, see, e.g., http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories__Narratives__Documen/Armenian_Genocide/Public_Petitions/publicpetition.gif

There is no need to posit a conspiracy with Turkey and Israel for Wiesel's desire to keep Holocaust conferences focused on the Holocaust. He is outspoken on the need to recognize that the Holocaust was a uniquely Jewish event. You may disagree with him, but at the same time you must recognize that he has been outspoken in mobilizing public opinion against other genocides. At the dedication of the Holocaust Museum he publicly berated President Clinton for not preventing the genocide of the Bosnian Muslims. Today he is active in promoting intervention in Darfur.

[tim]

Excuse me, Lindsay, but how can you possibly imagine I accused you of anti-Semitism?

[Marx and Lenin]

There is no need to posit a conspiracy with Turkey and Israel for Wiesel's desire to keep Holocaust conferences focused on the Holocaust. He is outspoken on the need to recognize that the Holocaust was a uniquely Jewish event. You may disagree with him, but at the same time you must recognize that he has been outspoken in mobilizing public opinion against other genocides. At the dedication of the Holocaust Museum he publicly berated President Clinton for not preventing the genocide of the Bosnian Muslims. Today he is active in promoting intervention in Darfur.

You're simply wrong. Weisel (and Chirac and the British government) has been shameless in attempting to minimize the Armenian holocaust. The Israeli government has conistently valued their alliance with the Turks over the memory of the Armenians.

It's ironic. That's why I'm bracketing the two, Weisel and Grass. Weisel, a victim of the Nazis, is now an apologist for colonialism and an apologist for the Turkish goverment. Grass, a victimizer and a Nazi, is now a critic of American imperialism.

[Lindsay Beyerstein]

It was wrong of Grass not to divulge his old SS ties all these years, especially because he assumed a position of leadership in post-war Germany. What exactly did he do wrong? I'd describe his transgression as hypocrisy and/or cowardice, not covert antisemitism. The guy is ashamed of what he did during the war, and he was afraid of what people would think of him if they found out. So, like a lot of people with shameful secrets, he hid the truth.

That's wrong and disappointing, but it's not necessarily a failing that should prompt people to dismiss him and his life's work.

[rasbobbo]

lindsay,
can i help you enjoy that snicker?

[Marx and Lenin]

Here's Israel Charney's letter of resignation.

April 12, 2001

The Honorable Shimon Peres, Foreign Minister
Ministry of Foreign Affairs, State of Israel
Jerusalem, Israel

Re: Report in Turkish Daily News, Ankara, 10 April 2001

Dear Mr. Peres:

I offer you my deepest respects for your enormous contributions to the security and development of Israel, and to peace.

Nonetheless, it has been my privilege for many years not to agree with your position regarding the Armenian Genocide. It seems that because of your wish to advance very important relations with Turkey, you have been prepared to circumvent the subject of the Armenian Genocide of 1915-1920.

(Thus you advised me in a telephone conversation in 1982 not to insist on including the subject of the Armenians in the First International Conference on the Holocaust and Genocide that we convened in Tel-Aviv, and I then made the decision not to give in to pressures of the Foreign Ministry to cancel the lectures on the Armenian genocide or to cancel the entire conference.)

It seems to me, according to yesterday's report in the Ankara newspaper, that you have gone beyond a moral boundary that no Jew should allow himself to trespass. You are quoted as follows: "We reject attempts to create a similarity between the Holocaust and the Armenian allegations. Nothing similar to the Holocaust occurred. It is a tragedy what the Armenians went through but not a genocide."

For the record, in 2000, at a Conference on the Holocaust in Philadelphia, a large number of researchers of the Holocaust, including Israeli historians, signed a public declaration that the Armenian Genocide was factual.

Also for the record, in 1997, at the meeting of the Association of Genocide Scholars, the Association as a whole officially voted a resolution that the Armenians had been subject to full-scale genocide.

Even as I disagree with you, it may be that in your broad perspective of the needs of the State of Israel, it is your obligation to circumvent and desist from bringing up the subject with Turkey, but as a Jew and an Israeli I am ashamed of the extent to which you have now entered into the range of actual denial of the Armenian Genocide, comparable to denials of the Holocaust.

Respectfully,

Prof. Israel W. Charny
Executive Director,
Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide, Jerusalem, Israel
Editor-in-Chief, Encyclopedia of Genocide
[ABC-Clio Publishers, UK & USA, 1999]

[Lindsay Beyerstein]

Tim, what did you mean by your post entitled "ANOTHER VAGUE LINK BETWEEN THE LEFT AND ANTI-SEMITISM"--in which you cite me as a lefty defending Gunter Grass for serving in the SS--a leap which you made because I said that I intended to read one of his novels.

What did you mean by that? If you didn't mean to call me an anti-semite, perhaps you should write to that boy at Rovian Conspiracy, who cites your post as evidence that I love Nazis. If there's been some misunderstanding, you should apologize to him and Polipundit for confusing them.

[diana]

"You're simply wrong. Weisel (and Chirac and the British government) has been shameless in attempting to minimize the Armenian holocaust."

I think you are confusing Wiesel with Bernard Lewis, who might be called with justice something of an Armenian genocide minimizer.

About Wiesel, see this:

"Unfortunately,much of the American media still thinks that the Armenian genocide is subject to debate. Until recently, many American newspapers wrote about the "alleged" Armenian genocide or felt obliged to give equal weight to Turkey's denial of this grotesque
crime.

To counter such historical inaccuracy, in June 1998 the Association of Genocide Scholars unanimously defined this event as the 20th century's first genocide. Two years later, 126 Holocaust scholars, including Elie Wiesel -- awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his
lifelong effort to bear witness to genocide -- published a petition in the New York Times affirming "the incontestable fact of the Armenian genocide."

Does that satisfy you?

Link: http://groong.usc.edu/rosen.html

(Armenian News Network--read the whole thing.)

It took about 2 seconds of googling to turn this up. I'm sure there is more.

"The Israeli government has conistently valued their alliance with the Turks over the memory of the Armenians."

Politics makes strange bedfellows. Israel has as much right to be a-moral as the next country. Turkey is a Muslim country; Israel is isolated in a sea of Islamic hostility...the Armenian genocide is history.

You have totally fabricated Wiesel's public record with respect to the Armenian holocaust. Next you link that with Israel, where there is no link.

I suspect bad faith.

[tim]

Lindsay,

You were added as an update. The headline clearly referred to the original post. You do understand how that works, I assume.

What did I mean by my mention of you? Exactly as I wrote; that you were "standing by your man". There was no mention of you defending him for serving in the SS, because you didn't. There was no mention of anti-Semitism, because you didn't show any.

You did, however, stand by him in the wake of his SS revelations. Which is all that I wrote.

[JR]

Marx-and-Lenin (why am I arguing with a guy who calls himself Marx-and-Lenin? I guess for the same reason that Lindsay is arguing with a horse's ass like Tim Blair - and no, M&L, I'm not calling YOU a horse's ass, you've been a perfectly reasonable debating partner, even if you do rely on sources like Counterpunch) -

the letter of Charney's resignation proves my point. Wiesel and Charney were co-signers of the Declaration that Charney cites in his letter. Every public report of that Declaration notes that Wiesel was the keynote speaker at the conference where it was signed.

[Marx and Lenin]

You have totally fabricated Wiesel's public record with respect to the Armenian holocaust.

Um. No. I'm not. You're taking a statement by Weisel that he made after he was thorougly called to the carpet over his behavior and after Israel Charney (whom I'm sure you'd accuse of "bad faith" hint hint "anti-semitism") resigned from the conference because Armenians were excluded.

The Israeli government has conistently valued their alliance with the Turks over the memory of the Armenians."

Politics makes strange bedfellows. Israel has as much right to be a-moral as the next country. Turkey is a Muslim country; Israel is isolated in a sea of Islamic hostility...the Armenian genocide is history.

Well you'd excuse the Israelis for their alliance with the government of Turkey (which perpetuated the first genocide of the 20th century) because it's "convenient" but I'm sure you'd make no such exception for the Palestinians who made an alliance of convenience with the Nazis during WWII.

In fact it's standard issue necon propaganda to post a photo of the Grand Mufti meeting with the Nazis.

The only problem is that the Germans had advisors in Turkey during the Armenian genocide and the planners of the Holocaust specifically referred to Turkey while they were setting up the "Final Solution".

So for any authority on the Holocaust to be in any way allied with the Turks wreaks of hypocrisy.

Compare Weisel to Gunter Grass who, while he covered up his own personal involvement with the SS, has consistently written from an anti-fascist point of view.

The problem the right has with Grass is that he's a critic of American war crimes. Wiesel gets a pass for supporting the Turks because he's an apologist for American imperialism (and its proxy in the middle east).

Funny how all genoicide and all war crimes don't seem to be created equal.

[Marx and Lenin]

My reference to Wiesel's holocaust denial of course refers to 1982, not to the late 90s.

http://www.counterpunch.org/mickey07072004.html

While Wiesel's documentation of the Nazi Holocaust has earned him international acclamation and a Nobel Peace Prize, he is not always predisposed to yield the genocide victim's spotlight. In 1982, for example, a conference on genocide was held in Israel with Wiesel scheduled to be honorary chairman, but the situation became complicated when the Armenians wanted in. Here's how Noam Chomsky described the incident: "The Israeli government put pressure upon [Wiesel] to drop the Armenian genocide. They allowed the others, but not the Armenian one. He was pressured by the government to withdraw, and being a loyal commissar as he is, he withdrew...because the Israeli government had said they didn't want Armenian genocide brought up." Wiesel went even further, calling up noted Israeli Holocaust historian, Yehuda Bauer, and pleading with him to also boycott the conference. "That gives an indication of the extent to which people like Elie Wiesel were carrying out their usual function of serving Israeli state interests," Chomsky explains, "even to the extent of denying a holocaust, which he regularly does." Why not welcome the Armenians, you wonder? Chalk it up to two conspicuous factors: the need to monopolize the Holocaust(tm) image and the geopolitical reality that Turkey (the nation responsible for the Armenian genocide) is a rare and much-needed Muslim ally for Israel.