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September 28, 2006

Final passage: Bush/McCain Torture Bill


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The Bush/McCain Torture Bill passes the Senate, 65-34.

Watch your back.

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This really is breaking my heart.

Lindsay, if they "got to" Sherrod Brown, he belongs to them now, unfortunately. He cannot be trusted ever to stand up to them. He has been destroyed, politically, forever, unless he were able somehow to come clean and say how he was pushed.

Otherwise, he can be pushed again, just as easily.

I do not drown my sorrows in alcohol, I smoke cannabis and it lifts me to a different perspective. Since I have a medical card and a doctor's recommendation and I live in the Bay Area this is sufficient to be legal, and that is rather nice.

It is as if I am living in an island of the greatest freedom in the history of this country, but surrounded by the collapse of all its historical institutions.

And that is what I estimate is happening. And it will continue to happen as long as your government makes war against its own people. Sherrod Brown voted for Hinchey-Rohrabacher, and I share your sense of loss that he has now voted for this monstrosity. I fear he would not reliably support medical marijuana even if he did so when it was not a politically pressured situation -- it was not going to pass so a vote for was not meaningful except symbolically.

When the chips are down, and it matters, I don't trust many people in this congress to make a stand. They had their moment and they didn't. And that was it, the Rubicon is crossed.

The Democratic Party leadership is corporate controlled, very much a part of the fascist architecture, with individual members limited in their ability to stand up against that leadership.

Maybe this will change, and I believe it can, but a massive change of public consciousness is necessary, and it has to be driven from the grass roots.

1. A pack of craven, shit-eating dogs has disemboweled my country and I'm way, way beyond pissed.

2. Lindsay's raising blog illustration to the level of art. Baby squirrel - dead mouse, fabulous.

It's not over yet. The Senate Bill has to be reconciled with the House Bill, and then the reconciliation bill will be voted on in both houses. There are a number of things that could still happen. In order of most preferable to least, they are:
(1) Dems filibuster whatever comes out of the reconciliation committee. It's not common, but it's within the rules, AFAIK.
(2) Dems manage to defer a vote on the reconciliation bill until after the election, when at least some people from both sides of the aisle will be able to vote against it without worries about the election.
(3) Someone manages to sneak in a time limit in the reconciliation bill, forcing a renewal debate in a year or so.

My own hit on things is that a left is in formation in the U.S. Something peculiar to our U.S. origins.

I have two reasons for this thought. First the war is most certainly lost. The right therefore has no place to go from here. Some have said that a right wing leader could be more extreme, demanding victory at all costs, but that seems unlikely with the climate of the country as it is.

Secondly unlike in the past with a significant communist alternative the left has no plan now. That's a good thing. The political problem is the massive war machine in the U.S. That requires a very serious alternative in the sense of jobs and what the country could do by letting go of the military option.

There is certainly enough support for a leftward shift to go forward. The massive shifts required for a left to grow strong seem now set in place, military failure, and economic miss management. Any significant left grows out of practical processes when given the opportunity. And that seems more likely at this juncture than at any time since WWII.
thanks,
Doyle Saylor

1984 : "Write your congressperson, senator, and President. Even if your senator voted your way, give them loads of positive reinforcement. Assure the President and Congressperson that you find the practice of torture intrinsically loathsome, and beneath us as Americans."

Sadly, we of the territory of D.C. have no Senator or Congressman, even though our population is larger than that of many States. I'd write someone, but since I don't vote for them, I'd doubt they care.

Why am I so pessimistic today. Perhaps my personal experiences elsewhere...

This land is your land, this land is my land.

--Sadly, we of the territory of D.C. have no Senator or Congressman, even though our population is larger than that of many States. I'd write someone, but since I don't vote for them, I'd doubt they care.--

They should chop DC in half and give half to Maryland and half to Virginia. Which is where the land came from anyway, so it would be a matter of simple justice.

The effort to get "DC statehood" was always kind of a scam to get two new Democrat Senators for life more than it was any kind of a push for democracy, doncha think?

Phantom, are you saying that it's a scam because the people of DC would elect Democrats? What kind of sick logic is that: Don't give people the same rights as other Americans, because they'll probably just exercise them by voting for people I don't like!

I think we can all agree that it is intolerable that some American citizens don't have Congressmen or Senators to represent them.

So, the question is, what should we do about that?

I say, ask them what they want. I don't hear DCers clamoring to split up their city between two states. Maybe ask Maryland and Virigina what they'd prefer, too. The Republicans in those states sure as hell don't want DC! George Allen is already scared of Northern Virginia.

This was part of the compromise back in the day, to have the district be a special area, representing all the country, more or less above the fray of partisanship, representing the whole country.

As I cut and paste from the ever-wonderful wikipedia:
"Citizens of Washington, D.C. are not unique in having diminished representation in their federal legislature, although they are unique in having no voting representation at all. Some nations that have built capital cities from scratch, including Australia and Nigeria, have diminished representation for a federal district. Washington's situation can also be compared to the historical status of U.S. territories, which had only non-voting delegates to the House."

The situation is not really unusual, it's not new, and it's not wrong.

A compromise that I will consent to, to avoid partition, will be to give all of DC to Maryland. Or else leave it as it is!

You'll consent to giving all of DC to Maryland? That's terribly big of you.

What constitutional standing do the preferences of Bay Ridge Republicans have in all this?

Since we're talking preferences, I'll let you give all of DC to Maryland if you agree to let Brooklyn succeed from New York to form its own non-contiguous state with Guam. Deal?

As someone who spent 15 months in Guam, I'm not totally opposed to such a move.

I was not without sympathy to the move for NYC to secede from NY State, as we never got a fair shake from the suburbs/upstate and still don't.

Guam is a lovely place in spots. I used to swim
here often, as fine a spot as you'll ever find.

But it is awfully far from other places.

Lindsay, let's start the Brooklyn Secession Party. Please. The only question is where the Long Island line gets officially drawn.

Oh, and Phantom? As one who's lived both upstate and in the city, you're wrong. Nyc has water because of massive landgrabs upstate, using upstate in the nyc definition of "anything above the Bronx". Then there's the nuclear power plant producing part of the city's power supply, which, oddly enough, isn't in or particularly near the city. Hell, where do you think the rest of the electricity that keeps Times Square wasteful comes from?
It's true Albany is where the state leeches a bit from the city, but the city needs the state a lot more than it likes to admit.

It can be like the Iroqois Federation- Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst, Canarsie, Bed Stuy, Borough Park, Cobble Hill, Red Hook, Park Slope, etc all the historic neighborhoods sending representatives to the Nets Arena in Atlantic Yards for a Constitutional Convention. Oh how beautiful it will be!

But the best parties will be in Williamsburg. Because.

Brad

That land wasn't grabbed, it was paid for. And Indian Point pays taxes and provides jobs up there--lots of blue collar workers are very happy to have it, as are the well paid blue collar guys at other nuke plants in other states.

This is a really really long discussion in itself, but I absolutely think NY State, a monstrous corrupt and ineffective entity to begin with, leeches off NYC, whose gove is in itself, monstrous and corrupt and at times ineffective.

Could get into school aid, Medicaid / Medicare formulas, the fact that the suburban reps have a vote on police/fire retirement plans ( which only NYC has to pay for), the mass transit formulas, etc etc etc.

NY State is grossly dysfunctional. It gets worse every year. So called Republican Pataki accomplished nothing in all the years of his reign.

The rip off of NYC is only a part of it, bro, but it is not a small part.

Well, the corruption of all the admins involved, especially Pataki's, is definitely something we can agree on. But you might want to look a little closer at the history of nyc's water supply, and how the reserviors were made. There's still more than a few pissed off people in westchester and to the west.
N my point about Indian Point was that it's a major environmental risk, which is disproportionately borne by upstate.
I'm not against nuclear power in theory, but I am against the way it actually exists.

reservoir. doy.

"They should chop DC in half and give half to Maryland and half to Virginia. Which is where the land came from anyway, so it would be a matter of simple justice."

Virginia already has the land that was part of the Capital back.
I think a better solution would be to excise the actual Federal aparatus - White house, Capital, Supreme Court, and some of the surrounding monuments and park space, declaring them the capital district, and give the rest of the city to Maryland.

Njorl

Done!

And all the black DCers get thrown into the sea I presume.

Why is this discussion in a torture bill thread? I'm actually afraid to see how phantom worked his little obstructionist magic this time, I can only take so much stupid in one day - and if I fill up here I'll be too stuffed to check the various centrist bloggers' out and see how they're asking sane people to capitulate to this latest outrage (again).

DC deserves its own state. I don't understand why we're even considering any other option. It's a scam to consider how DC would vote if it were a state.

Obstructionist magic? I resemble that remark. Like most threads, it meanders as does the muddy Mississippi at times. I reacted to what Count Zero said. Its ok. Threads are like that.

And DC statehood can lead into a discussion of Guam statehood (really) and US Virgin Islands statehood and Puerto Rico statehood and Marianas Islands statehood and and endless stream that follows. Every spec of land does not get to be a state. And the compact that led to the creation of the District of Columbia said that it would not be a state. If you want to undo the compact, that just return the land to the place where it came from. That would be the fair thing, selon moi.

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