The pope and holy war

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Philosopher Giles Fraser on the pope, holy war, Islam, and triumphalism.

Robin of 3QD.

Comments

[mudkitty]

Tra la la, a pope speaks and people die. Same as it ever was, to quote D.Byrne.

[mudkitty]

Hey, if the Pope wants to play politician...

Too many preachers want to be politicians, and too many politians want to be preachers.

I, for one, am sick of religion. Keep your religion off of me.

[The Phantom]

mudkitty

Muslims kill and Muslims kill and Muslims kill....

If you're against free speech, come out and say it.

[yank in london]

Apparently he not satisfied with just upsetting the Muslims nows he's targetting the Jewish community. Maybe it's just a cunning plan so that both sides are both so angry at him they forget they're angry at each other?

Nah. Nevermind.

[RickD]

Hey Phantom,

I'll give you two numbers. Please tell me which is larger.

a) the number of Muslims killed in the past 5 years by Christian armies and/or terrorists
b) the number of Christians killed in the past 5 years by Muslim armies and/or terrorists

If you want to add the Jews in along with the Christians, be my guest. But I think any honest reading of the facts would realize that a) yields a much larger number than b).

(Blah, blah, blah, Muslims are violent, blah, blah, blah....)

[The Phantom]

a) the number of Muslims killed in the past 5 years by Christian armies and/or terrorists--zero.

b) the number of Christians killed in the past 5 years by Muslim armies and/or terrorists--you give me the number. Its higher than 3000, we know that.

I served in the US military. It is not a "Christian Army." It does not seek to convert anyone and it has loads of unbelivers and those of non Christian faith in it. Nor is that of any European country. Europe is effectively post-Christian, as anyone who has been there with eyes open can attest.

While those who attacked the WTC and who commit varynig outrages against Catholic nuns, schoolgirls in Indonesia, schoolteachers in Thailand, are all very clear as to their very Muslim identity.

Allah akbar. Read the Koran and get back to me.

[Fitz]

"[In Malaysia], where a long English Common Law tradition is under sustained pressure from sharia, a lady called Lina Joy is currently enduring death threats and a long legal battle because she committed the “crime” of converting from Islam to Catholicism.

Well, that’s Malaysia for you. But how about Michigan? Nazra Quraishi, a kindergarten teacher at a local Muslim school, wrote to The Lansing State Journal last month as follows: “Islam is a guide for humanity, for all times, until the day of judgment. It is forbidden in Islam to convert to any other religion. The penalty is death. There is no disagreement about it. Islam is being embraced by people of other faiths all the time. They should know they can embrace Islam, but cannot get out. This rule is not made by Muslims; it is the supreme law of God.”

… Christians and Muslims are both “people of the book.” But there’s a difference: Christianity started out as a religion of the weak, held by the lowliest in society and advanced by conversion and example, independent of the state. A distinction between religion and temporal power is embedded in its founding narratives. Compare the final words of Jesus to his disciples, on the day of his ascension: … “Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” … with the final words of Mohammed to his disciples: “I was ordered to fight all men until they say, ‘There is no god but Allah.’”

That’s quite a difference. Christ is saying go to the remotest parts of the world and persuade others of what you know to be the truth. Mohammed is saying fight all men until they submit to your truth: It’s not a plan for converting an existing empire (as Christianity did) but for establishing a new empire. Islam was born and spread as a warrior’s creed and, while that can be sedated, the intensity of anger of today’s western Muslims suggests that the Mohammedan fighter endures at the heart of their faith, albeit significantly augmented by greater firepower. Oh, come on, you say, what about the Spanish Inquisition? Well, for one thing, the Inquisition killed fewer people in a century and a half than the jihad does in an average year. But, in the larger sense, it’s easy to argue that, numbers aside, it was always an aberration and distortion of Christianity’s roots. It’s less clear that the jihad in its most violent form is a distortion of Mohammed’s message. With Islam, it’s the moderate variants of the Balkans, the Central Asian Stans and South Asia that are the aberration. And they’re all now fading.

So, if you’re pinning your hopes on Islamic reform, the difficulty is that most prominent Islamists are doing no more than Mohammedan karaoke. Here’s Osama bin Laden during the post-9/11 Afghan campaign: “I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Mohammed.”

Edward T. Oakes, S.J.

[Count Zero]

"a) the number of Muslims killed in the past 5 years by Christian armies and/or terrorists--zero."

Not true. We've killed 10's of thousands in Iraq - not even counting Afghanistan.

b) the number of Christians killed in the past 5 years by Muslim armies and/or terrorists--you give me the number. Its higher than 3000, we know that.

Well if you add in WTC/Jakarta/Libia/USS Cole/Embassy etc., it's probbably still under 10k. You're correct, it's over 3000+ but still not more than the Muslim world has lost.

"I served in the US military. It is not a "Christian Army."

Oh really? I was in that same military, and a majority of the people who gave services at the "non-demoninational" churches were of "some" Christian faith. It's largley a Christian army, though you might not characterize it as such, it is, and other
Muslim nations almost undoubtably do as well. There have even been cases at the Air Force Academy where cadets were being forced to join a group of Christians, or face harrasment or expulsion. The United States is 80% Christian, our government is largely Christian influenced, even today, so do you think the rest of the world doesn't recognize this? Especially the Muslim world? Of course they do. We all do. That's like me saying Iran's army isn't a Muslim army. Of course they are.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/03/airforce.religion/

"It does not seek to convert anyone and it has loads of unbelivers and those of non Christian faith in it.

The military? No, you're right it doesn't. Neither do the armies of other Muslim nations. However, to say that we don't have religious missionaries, attempting to covert Muslims is a misnomer.

"Nor is that of any European country. Europe is effectively post-Christian, as anyone who has been there with eyes open can attest."

Most native born European armies are Christian. I don't know what are you talking about with the "post-Christian Europe", as if everyone has suddenly abandoned Christianity. That hasn't happened, and the majority of the people are still Christian. Has their been an influx of Muslims and thus an increase in the size of Muslim communities? Sure there has. However, that doesn't mean that the Muslims are taking over as many fear mongers would have us believe. Their has been a claim that the birth rate of Europeans is in decline, however, that could be for about any reason, though mostly not because of Islam.

"While those who attacked the WTC and who commit varynig outrages against Catholic nuns, schoolgirls in Indonesia, schoolteachers in Thailand, are all very clear as to their very Muslim identity."

No doubt. As were the KKK, however, that doesn't mean that all Christians are bad now does it? Muslims have gone out of their way to denounce the more radical sects of their religion, I don't see why people still hold these groups up as representative of the world Muslim population.

[Count Zero]

This whole diatrive on Christanity "asks" people to convert, where supposedly Muslims force people, as is written in the Koran is a bunch of garbage. I would say that "both" at some point in their books, advocate violence as a means of conversion. This is just one passage, though I know of others that are equally as distrurbing.

Here is the Biblical version of that in Deuteronomy 20:

9 And it shall be, when the officers have made an end of speaking unto the people that they shall make captains of the armies to lead the people.

-- Ok we've got an army of Christians, tally ho!

10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

-- Go out and find a non-Christian city/country/nation, when you find it, give them a peace offering. Because you know, every country that has a nation just show up on their shores and just "tells them" they are declaring peace is a friendly one right?

11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

-- Oh so, if they "surrender" which I think is the apt term, you get to enslave and subjugate them as much as you want. Gee, and here I thought the Head Tax the muslims charge was bad, Christians just throw you into bondage.

12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

-- So, if you dont' surrender to enslavement, then what...oh yah, you die.

13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

-- Ok the lord has given you permission to kill, so go out and kill all the men....but wait....

14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

-- there's more... you get to keep all their lands, cattle, food, children and women...wow isn't that genocide? So God is advocating genocide at this point. Good to know for future reference. Seems like he must be one of the Co-designers of that knew Christian game "Eternal Forces", and here I thougth that was a concept game.

15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

-- Basically, screw up everyone that isn't with you, because if they aren't with you, they're against you. Right?

16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

-- Woah!! Woahh!! WOOOOOAAAHHHH!! God is "giving" away the lands, but now, for the low, low price of $1.99, not only has he not only given you EVERYTHING as spoils, he has also given you permission to kill them till not a single one is left breathing? HOLY SHIT!!!

17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

-- God says...he doesn't want them killed dead till not breathing, but totally and utterly destroyed. Isn't dead dead? Or is this some sort of Saddam Hussain massive grave site jiggy thing we have going on here?

18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.

19 When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege:

-- But we will respect nature in our genocide, how thoughtful!

20 Only the trees which thou knowest that they be not trees for meat, thou shalt destroy and cut them down; and thou shalt build bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it be subdued.

-- Wait, hold up on that last thought! So if it's not a food tree, it's a dead tree! Ok, call up the Siera Club, I think we have an issue here.

[The Phantom]

Count Zero

My point stands. The US military has no religious test. You can be any religion you want. There are Jewish and Muslim chaplains.

The purpose of the US military is not to advance any Christian goal. One of it's recent missions was in Kosovo, where it fought a "Christian" land (Serbia) that had done the US no harm of any kind on behalf of the Muslim Kosovars.

The Iranian Army exists not only for national defense but to advance Muslim goals. All government arms of the Islamic Republic of Iran exist to promote Islam in a conscious way. Tell me how many Jewish or Christian chaplains exist in the Iranian or Saudi or Hizbollah armies.

The Muslims have loudly denounced Islamist atrocities? Absolute, unmitigated bullshit.

Any criticism of same from CAIR or any major organizations here is begrudging, limited and seemingly forced, always followed by something along the lines "yeah, but, what about Palestine? What about the cartoons? What about ( --insert whatever is making the mobs angry today. Could be anything-- )

Individual Muslims are largely decent, good. I know many. But organized Islam has not loudly denounced anything. Other that cartoons, or the Pope quoting a Byzantine emperor.

Such hypocritical bullshit.

[Mandos]

"Organized Islam"? Wozzat?

[The Phantom]

"Organized Islam"? Wozzat?

Mosques. Civil Oranizations. The Shiite Clergy. Al Azhar University. Other Muslim institutions.

You pick.

[Fitz]

"There have been major papal statements, books, debates, seminars, and Catholic courses on the importance of religious liberty and tolerance and mutual respect; and many declarations of remorse regarding how certain Catholics/Christians have behaved—almost to the point of overdoing it. Sensitive Catholics and Christians are still debating, if not rebuking, many military and political actions (or non-actions) by the Allies during the Second World War, even as they believe it was a just and necessary war.

Where is the similiar public soul-searching from the Islamic world? Today, Christians have debates raging about their culture, and the West’s conduct (especially in the Middle East), asking whether/if/how it measures up to Christian standards; our major institutions are being criticized and cross-examined all the time (and that is the way it should be); many Islamic countries, in contrast, don’t even know what self-examination or debate is. Those brave Islamic writers and individuals who have had the courage to speak out about extremism have been exiled, attacked, persecuted, jailed, and even killed. The great, Nobel Prize–winning Egyptian novelist, Naguib Mahfouz (1911–2006), was a devout Muslim but was stabbed by a militant jihadist in 1994, because of Mahfouz’s support for the Camp David Peace Accords and his opposition to the fatwa against Salman Rushdie (even as he was critical of Rushdie’s disrespect toward religion in general). The injury made his last years quite painful.

The deliberate, explicit targeting of innocent human beings, via terrorism, and the celebration of their deaths; the ritual execution, torture, and beheading of helpless hostages; the routine, often blatant violation of human rights, especially against women (including mutilation of their genitals)—it’s difficult to find anything quite like this throughout religious history, including the worst abuses of Christians, when you at least had other Christians, often popes, rebuking and condemning them for their crimes, and calling for reform, which eventually came about.

William Doino

[1984 Was Not a Shopping List]

>The Muslims have loudly denounced Islamist atrocities? Absolute, unmitigated bullshit.

Yes, there certainly is absolute, unmitigated bullshit, Phantom, as this link shows:

http://islam.about.com/cs/currentevents/a/9_11statements.htm

Here's a quote from it:

For the record, the inhuman attacks of September 11 were condemned in the strongest terms by virtually all Islamic leaders, organizations, and countries. The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia summarized that, "...hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts."

The link contains further links to statement after statement, in their dozens, condemning the attacks. But although there it is, in black and white, I doubt you'll admit it. You're wrong. But I begin to doubt your honesty in facing up to it when you are. You just want to condemn their religion, whether with truth or with slander.

[Roxanne]

The thing about this controversey most interesting to me is mainstream media pretending that the Pope's PR machine isn't the very best in the world. They knew this would be the fallout and they knew they'd have to "apologize."

[mudkitty]

Hey Phantom, just for the record, I like Voltaire, may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it.

But then I also have the right to say I think what you say is stupid. Not you personally.

[mudkitty]

What organized Islam...to paraphrase Will Rogers?

[The Phantom]

1984

There were -celebrations- about 9/11, on 9/11, and not just in East Jerusalem, until Arafat told them to cut it out.

The criticisms of 9/11 came, but compare the intensity of the Muslim reaction against fucking cartoons in a newspaper to the burning alive of 3000 people in an office building. Get real.

The quotes you supply are legitimate, but they tell a very partial story, true only in a Clintonian sense. They are largely of academics at American colleges making statements. Really good. But really incomplete.

But the ummah are capable of the largest demonstrations, with the greatest emotion.

Where were they on Sept 11, 2001? Nowhere.
Where were they when Bali happened? Not to be found.
Where were they when the London Tube was bombed? Missing in action.

Where were they when cartoons appeared in Scandinavian papers? Oh yeah they were out then in great force. Because the cartoons were an outrage

[Alon Levy]

So there were celebrations. There are also anti-choice protests in the US; by your logic it means everyone in the West is anti-choice.

[Madison Guy]

The thing about holy war is, we need to get people thinking about nuclear war. Get them worked up about the Iranian "threat." And on the other hand -- just in case we need to use those nuclear bunker busters -- make the idea of using nukes a little more thinkable. We need a little infotainment...

How about a "high-concept" TV soap featuring a plucky red state small town with a biblical name surviving nuclear catastrophe while those sinners in the big cities apparently burn in hellfire and disappear? http://letterfromhere.blogspot.com/2006/09/making-nuclear-war-thinkable.html>Yeah, new CBS show "Jericho" just might do it.

[The Phantom]

--So there were celebrations. There are also anti-choice protests in the US; by your logic it means everyone in the West is anti-choice.--

It is a very interesting, sad, leading indicator. And the celebrations were not limited to East Jerusalem. And they were underreported. Close your eyes if you wish.

It would have been very interesting to see how widespread they would have become had Arafat not ordered them ceased early on.

[Count Zero]

"It is a very interesting, sad, leading indicator."

Leading indicator of what? Their economy is doing well? Leading indicator is a financial one, having nothing to do with peoples emotional responses.

The fact that the show more of a response to someone insulting their religion as opposed to what? A country they see as antagonistic and imperilistic getting attacked by some, as they see it, good ole' boys from back home?

I think it's a given how they'll respond, and of course the response will be far greater when you insult Islam. What would you think would happen when you insult a world wide religion? A few hundred people camping outside the mosque in protest? I'd say there are a LOT more people willing to respond to something that makes them angry, than demonstrating as a show of sympathy. Far more. Humans are naturally agressive and warlike animals, how can it be any other way.

[Mnemosyne]

"Organized Islam"? Wozzat?

Mosques. Civil Oranizations. The Shiite Clergy. Al Azhar University. Other Muslim institutions.

Churches. Christian missionary organizations. Protestant and Catholic clergy. Bob Jones University, Patrick Henry College, Wheaton College, not to mention Notre Dame and Georgetown. Other Christian institutions.

Yes, Phantom, we know you hate Muslims with an unreasoning and unvarying hate that cannot be countered by logic of any kind. I realize that you think that "they" are coming to get you, when most of "them" don't know -- much less care -- that you exist.

Please go back to hiding under your bed and let the grown-ups deal with foreign policy, 'K?

Because anyone who either forgets or disregards that Iran made their first diplomatic overture to the U.S. in 20 years when they officially expressed their sympathy to us in the wake of 9/11, only to be rebuffed by the Bush Administration and declared part of the "axis of evil," is completely clueless about how real life works.

[Count Zero]

"My point stands. The US military has no religious test. You can be any religion you want. There are Jewish and Muslim chaplains."

I love evasion of what was said, it's so fun to deal with. I never, nor did you, say there is a religious test. No doubt, you can be any religion you want, however, that doesn't change the fact that a predominate portion of the military is Christian. If you're military is 80 percent Christian, suffice it to say, it's a Christian army in the literal sense. Does it mean that's it's controlled by religion? No, that is where Iran and the U.S. differ, but what you said was incorrect. The statement you made had nothing to do with whether or not there were any Muslim clerics, nor Jewish rabbis, it was whether our army is a "Christian" army, meaning, it's represented by a country whose faith is Christian, which ours is.

This is what you said:

"I served in the US military. It is not a [b]"Christian Army."[/b] It does not seek to convert anyone and it has loads of unbelivers and those of non Christian faith in it. Nor is that of any European country. Europe is effectively post-Christian, as anyone who has been there with eyes open can attest."

Even some of the comments you make about it not trying to convert non-believers and not being prejudicial in it's treatment of it's members, was also a false statement.

[John Protevi]

Man, Lindsay, The Phantom and Fitz in one thread, and with such concise comments too! You might be in order for a Koufax nomination: highest concentration of drooling hate per column inch outside LGF.